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ImageJ Plugins shop

pushkarparanjpe
Hello!

When I was a grad student I have done some plugin development of my own. I knew a couple other friends and colleagues who were good software tool making for the sciences.
Most grad students are good tool makers. However, the tools that a student builds often get lost when the student leaves.

When we develop software tools for ourselves - these tools start out in a form that is useable mostly by yourself. It is usually when we are developing it for our friend/colleague that we care for re-useability.
But once we do develop for someone else -  the tool quality improves, documentation gets added, the tool gets feature updates and bug-fixes, etc. We want to build a web-based community of developers and users that benefits from such exchanges.

We want to enable tools to be - discoverable, re-useable and supported by the author, for a price. Existing media (methods section of a paper, supplementary pages, and methods journals) are unsuitable for this purpose.

I am writing to you about a shop that we have just launched - imagejplugins.com. We intend for it to be a medium for plugin authors to earn a side income while the community benefits from their tooling expertise.

So please visit us at imagejplugins.com, browse through the range of software products for ImageJ and - we would be so thrilled if you join and become a plugin author on our shop!

We intend for imagejplugins.com to be a marketplace for premium ImageJ plugins and macros that are contributed by authors and consumed by a web-based community of ImageJ users.

Your comments/suggestions are welcome! Please feel free to share imagejplugins.com, with your co-developers / colleagues/friends who may benefit from it, Tweet us, share us on Facebook - spread the good word :)

--
Pushkar
imagejplugins.com

P.S.: imagejplugins.com is in its nascent stages, we will learn and improve as the user-base grows and we receive feedback.
Currently, we have added the free NIH plugins catalog to our collection - so you may find a plugin that you authored to be listed there!
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Jeremy Adler-2
I have a visceral reaction to the monetarization of the sharing of scientific knowledge. Resources that mostly originate from public/charity funded research.

Sharing and free advice/discussion benefit us all.

A notable absence is a clear statement about the benefits that will accrue to the creators/operators of the site.






Jeremy Adler

 


________________________________________
From: ImageJ Interest Group [[hidden email]] on behalf of pushkarparanjpe [[hidden email]]
Sent: 06 April 2017 13:26
To: [hidden email]
Subject: ImageJ Plugins shop

Hello!

When I was a grad student I have done some plugin development of my own. I
knew a couple other friends and colleagues who were good software tool
making for the sciences.
Most grad students are good tool makers. However, the tools that a student
builds often get lost when the student leaves.

When we develop software tools for ourselves - these tools start out in a
form that is useable mostly by yourself. It is usually when we are
developing it for our friend/colleague that we care for re-useability.
But once we do develop for someone else -  the tool quality improves,
documentation gets added, the tool gets feature updates and bug-fixes, etc.
We want to build a web-based community of developers and users that benefits
from such exchanges.

We want to enable tools to be - discoverable, re-useable and supported by
the author, for a price. Existing media (methods section of a paper,
supplementary pages, and methods journals) are unsuitable for this purpose.

I am writing to you about a shop that we have just launched -
imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com/>  . We intend for it to be a
medium for plugin authors to earn a side income while the community benefits
from their tooling expertise.

So please visit us at  imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com/>  ,
browse through the range of software products for ImageJ and - we would be
so thrilled if you join and become a plugin author on our shop!

We intend for  imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com/>   to be a
marketplace for premium ImageJ plugins and macros that are contributed by
authors and consumed by a web-based community of ImageJ users.

Your comments/suggestions are welcome! Please feel free to share
imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com/>  , with your co-developers /
colleagues/friends who may benefit from it, Tweet us, share us on Facebook -
spread the good word :)

--
Pushkar
imagejplugins.com

P.S.: imagejplugins.com is in its nascent stages, we will learn and improve
as the user-base grows and we receive feedback.
Currently, we have added the free NIH plugins catalog to our collection - so
you may find a plugin that you authored to be listed there!



--
View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.com/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455.html
Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
--
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Jacqui Ross
In reply to this post by pushkarparanjpe
Hi Pushkar,

I have to admit I'm a little disappointed to see that you want to charge for the use of plugins, when you have benefited from the work being carried out by others. It seems contrary to the open-source community ethos.

Kind regards,

Jacqui

-----Original Message-----
From: ImageJ Interest Group [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of pushkarparanjpe
Sent: Thursday, 6 April 2017 11:27 p.m.
To: [hidden email]
Subject: ImageJ Plugins shop

Hello!

When I was a grad student I have done some plugin development of my own. I knew a couple other friends and colleagues who were good software tool making for the sciences.
Most grad students are good tool makers. However, the tools that a student builds often get lost when the student leaves.

When we develop software tools for ourselves - these tools start out in a form that is useable mostly by yourself. It is usually when we are developing it for our friend/colleague that we care for re-useability.
But once we do develop for someone else -  the tool quality improves, documentation gets added, the tool gets feature updates and bug-fixes, etc.
We want to build a web-based community of developers and users that benefits from such exchanges.

We want to enable tools to be - discoverable, re-useable and supported by the author, for a price. Existing media (methods section of a paper, supplementary pages, and methods journals) are unsuitable for this purpose.

I am writing to you about a shop that we have just launched - imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com/>  . We intend for it to be a medium for plugin authors to earn a side income while the community benefits from their tooling expertise.

So please visit us at  imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com/>  , browse through the range of software products for ImageJ and - we would be so thrilled if you join and become a plugin author on our shop!

We intend for  imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com/>   to be a
marketplace for premium ImageJ plugins and macros that are contributed by authors and consumed by a web-based community of ImageJ users.

Your comments/suggestions are welcome! Please feel free to share imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com/>  , with your co-developers / colleagues/friends who may benefit from it, Tweet us, share us on Facebook - spread the good word :)

--
Pushkar
imagejplugins.com

P.S.: imagejplugins.com is in its nascent stages, we will learn and improve as the user-base grows and we receive feedback.
Currently, we have added the free NIH plugins catalog to our collection - so you may find a plugin that you authored to be listed there!



--
View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.com/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455.html
Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html

--
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

pushkarparanjpe
Hello,

@Jeremy, @Jacqui: Thank you for your feedback. You raise a valid point. This idea is in early stages and evolving. I would love to discuss these issues with you.

Best regards,
Pushkar
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Emma Kay
Hi Pushkar

I shared Jeremy and Jacqui's concerns upon reading your message. I started
to use ImageJ as a student, and the main benefit to me then (as it still is
now) was the free sharing of code and expertise within this community. An
additional concern that I have about your venture is that new users might
find your site when performing a search for 'Image J plugins', and not be
aware that most published plugins are freely available, and usually not
that hard to acquire with a google search or request to the author. I think
that any commercialisation of ImageJ should be resisted.

Best regards,

Emma Kay

Postdoctoral Research Fellow
University of Gothenburg
Gothenburg
Sweden

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 8:36 AM, pushkarparanjpe <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> @Jeremy, @Jacqui: Thank you for your feedback. You raise a valid point.
> This
> idea is in early stages and evolving. I would love to discuss these issues
> with you.
>
> Best regards,
> Pushkar
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.
> com/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018462.html
> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>

--
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Adrián Villalba
Dear all,

The main advantage that FIJI represents for me is the availability. I can
use an open-source platform to learn image processing for biological
research, and to use and re-use the work of other colleagues around the
word. My only paiment is to work and to extend ImageJ (by plugins and
macros) and to free share to the rest of the community.

I think this is the best choice to make scientific research bigger and
greater.

I am sorry Pushkar, but i think your trial of imagej shop has born by a
missunderstanding of scientific collaboration. We are scientists not
business programmers.




<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Libre
de virus. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

2017-04-07 9:59 GMT+02:00 Emma Kay <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Pushkar
>
> I shared Jeremy and Jacqui's concerns upon reading your message. I started
> to use ImageJ as a student, and the main benefit to me then (as it still is
> now) was the free sharing of code and expertise within this community. An
> additional concern that I have about your venture is that new users might
> find your site when performing a search for 'Image J plugins', and not be
> aware that most published plugins are freely available, and usually not
> that hard to acquire with a google search or request to the author. I think
> that any commercialisation of ImageJ should be resisted.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Emma Kay
>
> Postdoctoral Research Fellow
> University of Gothenburg
> Gothenburg
> Sweden
>
> On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 8:36 AM, pushkarparanjpe <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > @Jeremy, @Jacqui: Thank you for your feedback. You raise a valid point.
> > This
> > idea is in early stages and evolving. I would love to discuss these
> issues
> > with you.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Pushkar
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.
> > com/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018462.html
> > Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > --
> > ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
> >
>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>



--

   - Adrián Villalba Felipe.
   https://es.linkedin.com/in/adrianvillalba

--
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Matthew Jones
Hi,

Firstly, I side strongly with the previous arguments that keeping ImageJ related code completely free and open source is ultimately the best way to ensure high quality science and unhibited collaboration.

However, I do also see big potential for building on existing frameworks for supporting longevitiy, visibility and reusability of tools and resources generated by graduate students and other researchers and lab members.

I hope you will be able to go back to the drawing board and perhaps reinvent your project so that it robustly preserves the open source ethos that makes ImageJ and FIJI so powerful, whilst considering ways that you can support tool builders work to be maintained and built upon.

It would be interesting to consider a ‘Donate if you found this useful’ portal, a feedback/rating system with comments and user-generated tips, a search engine for plugins and also possibly a ‘sponsor a developer’ system which could be along the lines of Patreon.com <http://patreon.com/> where people typically crowd-fund poets/comedians/artists/musicians/podcasters etc. who produce excellent content and art in an ongoing manner but struggle to reach a disparate internet audience who are fans of their work but lack convenient, flexible ways to support their work financially.

Thanks for the enthusiasm and I hope you’re not put off contributing to the community but please keep things free and open source,

Best wishes,

Matt
 

> On 7 Apr 2017, at 06:10, Adrián Villalba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> The main advantage that FIJI represents for me is the availability. I can
> use an open-source platform to learn image processing for biological
> research, and to use and re-use the work of other colleagues around the
> word. My only paiment is to work and to extend ImageJ (by plugins and
> macros) and to free share to the rest of the community.
>
> I think this is the best choice to make scientific research bigger and
> greater.
>
> I am sorry Pushkar, but i think your trial of imagej shop has born by a
> missunderstanding of scientific collaboration. We are scientists not
> business programmers.
>
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Libre
> de virus. www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> 2017-04-07 9:59 GMT+02:00 Emma Kay <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hi Pushkar
>>
>> I shared Jeremy and Jacqui's concerns upon reading your message. I started
>> to use ImageJ as a student, and the main benefit to me then (as it still is
>> now) was the free sharing of code and expertise within this community. An
>> additional concern that I have about your venture is that new users might
>> find your site when performing a search for 'Image J plugins', and not be
>> aware that most published plugins are freely available, and usually not
>> that hard to acquire with a google search or request to the author. I think
>> that any commercialisation of ImageJ should be resisted.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Emma Kay
>>
>> Postdoctoral Research Fellow
>> University of Gothenburg
>> Gothenburg
>> Sweden
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 8:36 AM, pushkarparanjpe <[hidden email]
>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> @Jeremy, @Jacqui: Thank you for your feedback. You raise a valid point.
>>> This
>>> idea is in early stages and evolving. I would love to discuss these
>> issues
>>> with you.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Pushkar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.
>>> com/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018462.html
>>> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>   - Adrián Villalba Felipe.
>   https://es.linkedin.com/in/adrianvillalba
>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html


--
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

JOEL B. SHEFFIELD
Hi,

I feel strongly that one of the things that make ImageJ such a marvel in
the current scientific environment is that it is indeed open source.  In
some ways, it represents the ideal of the science in which I grew up, when
research was to be shared, and not necessarily monitized.  This does not
mean that significant efforts, such as those of Wayne and Curtis and the
many colleagues throughout the world should remain anonymous, though.
There are many plugins available that request an acknowledgement when they
are used for publication, and I see no reason that this could not be
expanded.



Joel B. Sheffield, Ph.D
Department of Biology
Temple University
Philadelphia, PA 19122
Voice: 215 204 8839
e-mail: [hidden email]
URL:  *http://tinyurl.com/khbouft <http://tinyurl.com/khbouft>*

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Matthew Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Firstly, I side strongly with the previous arguments that keeping ImageJ
> related code completely free and open source is ultimately the best way to
> ensure high quality science and unhibited collaboration.
>
> However, I do also see big potential for building on existing frameworks
> for supporting longevitiy, visibility and reusability of tools and
> resources generated by graduate students and other researchers and lab
> members.
>
> I hope you will be able to go back to the drawing board and perhaps
> reinvent your project so that it robustly preserves the open source ethos
> that makes ImageJ and FIJI so powerful, whilst considering ways that you
> can support tool builders work to be maintained and built upon.
>
> It would be interesting to consider a ‘Donate if you found this useful’
> portal, a feedback/rating system with comments and user-generated tips, a
> search engine for plugins and also possibly a ‘sponsor a developer’ system
> which could be along the lines of Patreon.com <http://patreon.com/> where
> people typically crowd-fund poets/comedians/artists/musicians/podcasters
> etc. who produce excellent content and art in an ongoing manner but
> struggle to reach a disparate internet audience who are fans of their work
> but lack convenient, flexible ways to support their work financially.
>
> Thanks for the enthusiasm and I hope you’re not put off contributing to
> the community but please keep things free and open source,
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Matt
>
> > On 7 Apr 2017, at 06:10, Adrián Villalba <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > The main advantage that FIJI represents for me is the availability. I can
> > use an open-source platform to learn image processing for biological
> > research, and to use and re-use the work of other colleagues around the
> > word. My only paiment is to work and to extend ImageJ (by plugins and
> > macros) and to free share to the rest of the community.
> >
> > I think this is the best choice to make scientific research bigger and
> > greater.
> >
> > I am sorry Pushkar, but i think your trial of imagej shop has born by a
> > missunderstanding of scientific collaboration. We are scientists not
> > business programmers.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> > Libre
> > de virus. www.avast.com
> > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > 2017-04-07 9:59 GMT+02:00 Emma Kay <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Hi Pushkar
> >>
> >> I shared Jeremy and Jacqui's concerns upon reading your message. I
> started
> >> to use ImageJ as a student, and the main benefit to me then (as it
> still is
> >> now) was the free sharing of code and expertise within this community.
> An
> >> additional concern that I have about your venture is that new users
> might
> >> find your site when performing a search for 'Image J plugins', and not
> be
> >> aware that most published plugins are freely available, and usually not
> >> that hard to acquire with a google search or request to the author. I
> think
> >> that any commercialisation of ImageJ should be resisted.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Emma Kay
> >>
> >> Postdoctoral Research Fellow
> >> University of Gothenburg
> >> Gothenburg
> >> Sweden
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 8:36 AM, pushkarparanjpe <
> [hidden email]
> >>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> @Jeremy, @Jacqui: Thank you for your feedback. You raise a valid point.
> >>> This
> >>> idea is in early stages and evolving. I would love to discuss these
> >> issues
> >>> with you.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> Pushkar
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.
> >>> com/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018462.html
> >>> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >   - Adrián Villalba Felipe.
> >   https://es.linkedin.com/in/adrianvillalba
> >
> > --
> > ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>
>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>

--
ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Cammer, Michael
In reply to this post by pushkarparanjpe
It is a laudable goal to make computational tools available to be discoverable, and re-useable.

If your research was funded by gov't, it may be a legal requirement that you make these tools freely available with at least basic documentation.  Or the university may claim to hold ownership.  Many journals may require that the tools be open for inspection.  

Therefore, it would be illegal to charge for them.

However, additional support, customization, consultation, training, etc. could be a free-for-service.

Regards,
Michael

=*===========================================================*=
 Michael Cammer, DART Microscopy Laboratory, NYU Langone Medical Center
    Cell:  914-309-3270 (this is for calling, not texting)    Office: Skirball 2nd Floor main office, back right
      http://ocs.med.nyu.edu/microscopy & http://microscopynotes.com/
http://nyusackler.university-tour.com/15/34/core-laboratories-and-shared-resources/microscopy-core
http://nyusackler.university-tour.com/15/32/core-laboratories-and-shared-resources/introduction



-----Original Message-----
From: pushkarparanjpe [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 2:37 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Hello,

@Jeremy, @Jacqui: Thank you for your feedback. You raise a valid point. This idea is in early stages and evolving. I would love to discuss these issues with you.

Best regards,
Pushkar



--
View this message in context: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__imagej.1557.x6.nabble.com_ImageJ-2DPlugins-2Dshop-2Dtp5018455p5018462.html&d=DQICAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=gy24ik2bBn9EZctRgaYQoLoapAedFMlQbPiyGFscDME&s=GUGMZ0XwfzE7TEL3-rV726g9lAqVgZdQx7WcNBnC2pk&e=
Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Cammer, Michael
"fee" for service.  Sorry about the typo.

=*===========================================================*=
 Michael Cammer, DART Microscopy Laboratory, NYU Langone Medical Center
    Cell:  914-309-3270 (this is for calling, not texting)    Office: Skirball 2nd Floor main office, back right
      http://ocs.med.nyu.edu/microscopy & http://microscopynotes.com/
http://nyusackler.university-tour.com/15/34/core-laboratories-and-shared-resources/microscopy-core
http://nyusackler.university-tour.com/15/32/core-laboratories-and-shared-resources/introduction



-----Original Message-----
From: ImageJ Interest Group [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:18 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

It is a laudable goal to make computational tools available to be discoverable, and re-useable.

If your research was funded by gov't, it may be a legal requirement that you make these tools freely available with at least basic documentation.  Or the university may claim to hold ownership.  Many journals may require that the tools be open for inspection.  

Therefore, it would be illegal to charge for them.

However, additional support, customization, consultation, training, etc. could be a free-for-service.

Regards,
Michael

=*===========================================================*=
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-----Original Message-----
From: pushkarparanjpe [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 2:37 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Hello,

@Jeremy, @Jacqui: Thank you for your feedback. You raise a valid point. This idea is in early stages and evolving. I would love to discuss these issues with you.

Best regards,
Pushkar



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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

pushkarparanjpe
I thank you all for your valuable time in analyzing the issues and articulating your responses. I really appreciate the suggestions, comments and even alternative monetization strategies that were suggested here, as they will be crucially instrumental in shaping imagejplugins.com

I want to clarify that this project does not intend to monetize core ImageJ code or the Fiji distribution. Free plugins available in the public domain will continue to be freely available. These will not be sold. In fact, we want to help in making these tools more easily discoverable so that they are accessible to a newer and wider audience. For e.g. this will enable fresh graduate students and newcomers to the image analysis field in finding the ImageJ tool that solves their problem.

Plugins submitted to our registry will always be open source, documented and supported by the author developer. The author has the option to choose to make their code available free of cost or for a price. The author owns the copyright of the submitted piece of work and chooses the sale license. Any submitted work will be accepted only after a review process that ascertains that it meets strict quality standards. Also, by allowing customer ratings, reviews and discussions on an individual plugin page we are creating a direct channel of communication between the end-user and the plugin developer author that will enable plugin maintenance and support.

ImageJ is currently used by a group of people who are technically quite proficient and who were typically introduced to it by osmosis in an academic lab environment. A large majority of workers in technical domains are outside academic research labs. They too deserve their first encounter with ImageJ, perhaps followed by extensive hand-holding and training. These people will spread the word about ImageJ and the community can grow exponentially. We intend to supplement the existing ImageJ literature with constantly updated tutorial and blog content to educate newcomers and power-users about ImageJ.

We believe, there is a still larger number of people for whom computer programming/algorithm-design/image-analysis is outside their comfort zone, but can benefit immensely from the user-friendliness and customizability of the ImageJ platform. Computer science engineers, on the other hand, who have the ability to write code do not necessarily have visibility into the real challenges faced by people working with image data. We want these two sections of the technical community to find and interact with each other via imagejplugins.com and use the ImageJ platform as a medium to work collaboratively.

As we develop and grow imagejplugins.com we would love to discuss such issues with you as we believe it will only help make it better and realize its full potential. Thanking you!

Pushkar
imagejplugins.com
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Andrei Stefan
Hi,

I curiously followed this topic for some time and I would like to share
some thoughts.

First, I am a bit confused about who "we" is in Pushkar's emails.
On Pushkar's web site the google maps location of the "business" is
located close to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, in a residential
area.
Second, at that google map indicator a store called "Cardiff Hartech" is
also located. When opening the stores webpage, it looks very similar to
what Pushkar designed for his/theirs ImageJ plugin webpage. Do these
websites and store have the same owner?


Pushkar, even though your emails seem very well phrased (business language)
in terms of your intentions with this ImageJ plugin "shop", personally I am
not convinced that you shared the true story behind your intentions.


Kind regards,
Andrei

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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

pushkarparanjpe
Thank you for pointing this out.
Andrei Stefan wrote
First, I am a bit confused about who "we" is in Pushkar's emails.
On Pushkar's web site the google maps location of the "business" is
located close to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, in a residential
area.
Currently, I am operating out of Liverpool, UK. I have updated the default map location of the website template just now.

Andrei Stefan wrote
Pushkar, even though your emails seem very well phrased (business language)
in terms of your intentions with this ImageJ plugin "shop", personally I am
not convinced that you shared the true story behind your intentions.
I would love to get on a call with you and talk about the motivations for starting this website. I am writing to you separately to share my mobile phone number.

Cheers!
Pushkar
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Jeremy Adler-2
In reply to this post by pushkarparanjpe
You write
"I want to clarify that this project does not intend to monetize core ImageJ code or the Fiji distribution. Free plugins available in the public domain will continue to be freely available."

Given that this is beyond your ability, your reassurance is rather meaningless but contains a hint of ambition.

An idea that often works is, follow the money.
Previously I asked what you expect to get out of this - presumably a share of any sales, probably advertising revenue and maybe selling contact details from the site etc.
But you did not respond. So to be absolutely clear, what are you up to ?

Within limits science funding a zero sum game, so if you a taking a cut, for whatever semi plausible reason, then there is less left for those actually doing science.
Even advertising revenue is not "new" money as these costs are ultimately appear in the purchase price of equipment/software and are paid by the science community.
















-----Original Message-----
From: ImageJ Interest Group [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of pushkarparanjpe
Sent: den 10 april 2017 01:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

I thank you all for your valuable time in analyzing the issues and articulating your responses. I really appreciate the suggestions, comments and even alternative monetization strategies that were suggested here, as they will be crucially instrumental in shaping  imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com>  

I want to clarify that this project does not intend to monetize core ImageJ code or the Fiji distribution. Free plugins available in the public domain will continue to be freely available. These will not be sold. In fact, we want to help in making these tools more easily discoverable so that they are accessible to a newer and wider audience. For e.g. this will enable fresh graduate students and newcomers to the image analysis field in finding the ImageJ tool that solves their problem.

Plugins submitted to our registry will always be open source, documented and supported by the author developer. The author has the option to choose to make their code available free of cost or for a price. The author owns the copyright of the submitted piece of work and chooses the sale license. Any submitted work will be accepted only after a review process that ascertains that it meets strict quality standards. Also, by allowing customer ratings, reviews and discussions on an individual plugin page we are creating a direct channel of communication between the end-user and the plugin developer author that will enable plugin maintenance and support.

ImageJ is currently used by a group of people who are technically quite proficient and who were typically introduced to it by osmosis in an academic lab environment. A large majority of workers in technical domains are outside academic research labs. They too deserve their first encounter with ImageJ, perhaps followed by extensive hand-holding and training. These people will spread the word about ImageJ and the community can grow exponentially. We intend to supplement the existing ImageJ literature with constantly updated tutorial and blog content to educate newcomers and power-users about ImageJ.

We believe, there is a still larger number of people for whom computer programming/algorithm-design/image-analysis is outside their comfort zone, but can benefit immensely from the user-friendliness and customizability of the ImageJ platform. Computer science engineers, on the other hand, who have the ability to write code do not necessarily have visibility into the real challenges faced by people working with image data. We want these two sections of the technical community to find and interact with each other
via imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com>   and use the ImageJ
platform as a medium to work collaboratively.

As we develop and grow imagejplugins.com we would love to discuss such issues with you as we believe it will only help make it better and realize its full potential. Thanking you!

Pushkar
imagejplugins.com <http://imagejplugins.com>  




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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Thomas Boudier-4
In reply to this post by pushkarparanjpe
Dear Pushkar,

I think there is a big misunderstanding on what you want to do. I f you
want to set up a repository of existing plugins, ok, why not, but what
for ?.  There are aleady many official repositories for plugins, I do
not think we need one more. And if you want to create a repository,
please ask the plugins developers if they want their plugins to be
hosted on your repository.

If you want to have commercial activity with ImageJ/Fiji, there is space
for this, and the best (and only ?) way to do is to set-up a company and
provide programming service  to develop custom-made plugins to
third-parties.

I think the idea of a shop mixing free (and open-source) plugins with
paid ones is not a good idea as it is not the ImageJ/Fiji philosophy, so
please clarify your intentions.

Best regards,

Thomas


On 10/04/2017 15:33, pushkarparanjpe wrote:

> Thank you for pointing this out.
>
> Andrei Stefan wrote
>> First, I am a bit confused about who "we" is in Pushkar's emails.
>> On Pushkar's web site the google maps location of the "business" is
>> located close to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, in a residential
>> area.
> Currently, I am operating out of Liverpool, UK. I have updated the default
> map location of the website template just now.
>
>
> Andrei Stefan wrote
>> Pushkar, even though your emails seem very well phrased (business
>> language)
>> in terms of your intentions with this ImageJ plugin "shop", personally I
>> am
>> not convinced that you shared the true story behind your intentions.
> I would love to get on a call with you and talk about the motivations for
> starting this website. I am writing to you separately to share my mobile
> phone number.
>
> Cheers!
> Pushkar
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.com/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018485.html
> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>
>

--
  /***************************************************************/
       Thomas Boudier, Associate Professor, UPMC,
       Université Pierre et Marie Curie, Paris, France.
       BioInformatics Institute (BII)/IPAL, Singapore.
/**************************************************************/

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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

ctrueden
Hi everyone,

There are many different schools of thought on software development and
deployment, even within open-source software. It is important to keep an
open mind to other perspectives, and assume best intentions. So first and
foremost, I implore everyone to maintain a respectful tone in ImageJ
community discussions.

=== Reusable tools are something to strive for ===

> When we develop software tools for ourselves - these tools start out
> in a form that is useable mostly by yourself. It is usually when we
> are developing it for our friend/colleague that we care for
> re-useability. But once we do develop for someone else -  the tool
> quality improves, documentation gets added, the tool gets feature
> updates and bug-fixes, etc.

This narrative certainly rings true in my experience. The fact of the
matter is that developing a reusable tool of broad scope is substantially
(sometimes vastly) more work than developing a one-off tool of limited
scope. How to fund/accomplish that extra work is often a thorny problem. I
applaud efforts to do so, because the alternative—a lack of reusable
tools—is not a good situation.

> We want to build a web-based community of developers and users that
> benefits from such exchanges.

100% agreed. That is why we have ImageJ update sites. It is a big reason
for the existence of ImageJ2. It is why we have the ImageJ wiki (
https://imagej.net/), and why I wrote the page https://imagej.net/
Distribution.

=== ImageJ is permissively licensed ===

> We want to enable tools to be - discoverable, re-useable and supported
> by the author, for a price. Existing media (methods section of a
> paper, supplementary pages, and methods journals) are unsuitable for
> this purpose.

ImageJ is funded by taxpayer money, and permissively licensed (
https://imagej.net/Licensing). It is available to the community for any and
all purposes, including commercial ones. From a general,
non-science-specific perspective, an "app store" for ImageJ extensions
could be extremely convenient, and could expand the ImageJ community.

=== The problem with non-free extensions ===

That said, ImageJ's primary use case is scientific image analysis, and it
is vital that such analyses be 100% reproducible. Non-free extensions are a
barrier to that reproducibility. For a detailed rationale, see
http://imagej.net/Open_Source and http://imagej.net/Reproducibility.

=== Objections ===

I have two primary objections to imagejplugins.com as presented:

1) In practice, it would encourage non-free plugins intended for scientific
analysis, resulting in less reproducible science in our community. Even
with fully reproducible FOSS, science is still difficult to do well (
http://imagej.github.io/presentations/2017-02-16-imagej2-neubias/#/18/2).

2) One of the primary goals of ImageJ2 is to unify online resources. We
still need to integrate several major resources onto the primary ImageJ
site (https://imagej.net/), including the ImageJ user guide (
https://imagej.net/docs/guide/), ImageJ 1.x plugin documentation (
https://imagej.net/index.html), and ImageJDocu Wiki (
http://imagejdocu.tudor.lu/). A new site imagejplugins.com would be a step
backward from that. If you want to move forward with an "app store" for
ImageJ extensions in this vein, I strongly encourage you to gather
requirements publicly from the community, and work toward some kind of
central community standard—i.e., something official, supported by the core
tooling of ImageJ. Yes, it is more work, but it is better for the same
reasons developing reusable plugins is better.

I also have a third pragmatic objection: implementing the security elements
necessary to support a payment infrastructure is a lot of effort. The core
ImageJ or Fiji development teams have neither time nor energy to facilitate
making it possible, for reasons stated above.

=== Ways to fund development of ImageJ extensions ===

Circling back to the broader question: how do we fund development and
maintenance of reusable ImageJ extensions? There are many possibilities,
such as:

1) Consulting—pay for the development, not the code. Several commercial
entities (companies, consultants, freelancers, etc.) make a living coding
solutions for clients, including ImageJ extensions [1]. In the typical
case, the client pays for consulting and/or code development services, and
the results are then released as open source whenever possible. In my view,
this is a nice crossroads of commercial and OSS development.

2) Public funds, such as scientific grants. This is how much of core ImageJ
and many Fiji plugins are funded. See http://imagej.net/Funding. I think
public agencies are (in general) becoming more aware that reusability,
including continued maintenance, is a necessary piece of the puzzle.

3) Training courses with registration fees.

4) Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/) and similar donation mechanisms.

The main thing to keep in mind is: how to fund the effort, while keeping
the science reproducible?

In the vein of "pay for the development, not the code," one idea I have
discussed with other developers is a web-based bounty system for issues.
Users may pledge money towards issues (i.e. bugs and feature requests) they
want to see solved. Developers may work on these issues. When work is
complete, the users confirm that their requirements are met, and the
payment happens. Of course, there are many nuances, edge cases and pitfalls
which must be carefully considered for such a scheme to work in practice.
But these are the sorts of places where there is room for ethical
innovation that keeps the science open while creating new revenue streams.

Regards,
Curtis

[1] E.g.: True North Intelligent Algorithms (http://truenorth-ia.com/) and
OptiNav (https://www.optinav.com/imagej-plugins).

--
Curtis Rueden
LOCI software architect - https://loci.wisc.edu/software
ImageJ2 lead, Fiji maintainer - https://imagej.net/User:Rueden
Did you know ImageJ has a forum? http://forum.imagej.net/


On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Thomas Boudier <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Dear Pushkar,
>
> I think there is a big misunderstanding on what you want to do. I f you
> want to set up a repository of existing plugins, ok, why not, but what for
> ?.  There are aleady many official repositories for plugins, I do not think
> we need one more. And if you want to create a repository, please ask the
> plugins developers if they want their plugins to be hosted on your
> repository.
>
> If you want to have commercial activity with ImageJ/Fiji, there is space
> for this, and the best (and only ?) way to do is to set-up a company and
> provide programming service  to develop custom-made plugins to
> third-parties.
>
> I think the idea of a shop mixing free (and open-source) plugins with paid
> ones is not a good idea as it is not the ImageJ/Fiji philosophy, so please
> clarify your intentions.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
> On 10/04/2017 15:33, pushkarparanjpe wrote:
>
>> Thank you for pointing this out.
>>
>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>
>>> First, I am a bit confused about who "we" is in Pushkar's emails.
>>> On Pushkar's web site the google maps location of the "business" is
>>> located close to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, in a
>>> residential
>>> area.
>>>
>> Currently, I am operating out of Liverpool, UK. I have updated the default
>> map location of the website template just now.
>>
>>
>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>
>>> Pushkar, even though your emails seem very well phrased (business
>>> language)
>>> in terms of your intentions with this ImageJ plugin "shop", personally I
>>> am
>>> not convinced that you shared the true story behind your intentions.
>>>
>> I would love to get on a call with you and talk about the motivations for
>> starting this website. I am writing to you separately to share my mobile
>> phone number.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Pushkar
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.c
>> om/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018485.html
>> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> --
>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>
>>
>>
> --
>  /***************************************************************/
>       Thomas Boudier, Associate Professor, UPMC,
>       Université Pierre et Marie Curie, Paris, France.
>       BioInformatics Institute (BII)/IPAL, Singapore.
> /**************************************************************/
>
>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>

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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Herbie
Dear list,

I very much should like to revive the discussion concerning the topic,
especially after Curtis' extensive comments that are as lucid as the
arguments of the initial poster.

My impression is that many of the remaining contributions are more to
the point and I don't see any reason to urge for a "respectful tone" and
if so, in a more specific way.

My opinion is that everybody should be free to pursue a fair and legal
business model.

A problem occurs however, if existing work of others, even if it is
freeware, is presented on a _commercial_ site without explicit
permission of the authors:
Authors must be free to decide on which sites their work is presented.

I very much should like to see further comments.

Regards

Herbie

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Am 10.04.17 um 19:30 schrieb Curtis Rueden:

> Hi everyone,
>
> There are many different schools of thought on software development and
> deployment, even within open-source software. It is important to keep an
> open mind to other perspectives, and assume best intentions. So first and
> foremost, I implore everyone to maintain a respectful tone in ImageJ
> community discussions.
>
> === Reusable tools are something to strive for ===
>
>> When we develop software tools for ourselves - these tools start out
>> in a form that is useable mostly by yourself. It is usually when we
>> are developing it for our friend/colleague that we care for
>> re-useability. But once we do develop for someone else -  the tool
>> quality improves, documentation gets added, the tool gets feature
>> updates and bug-fixes, etc.
>
> This narrative certainly rings true in my experience. The fact of the
> matter is that developing a reusable tool of broad scope is substantially
> (sometimes vastly) more work than developing a one-off tool of limited
> scope. How to fund/accomplish that extra work is often a thorny problem. I
> applaud efforts to do so, because the alternative—a lack of reusable
> tools—is not a good situation.
>
>> We want to build a web-based community of developers and users that
>> benefits from such exchanges.
>
> 100% agreed. That is why we have ImageJ update sites. It is a big reason
> for the existence of ImageJ2. It is why we have the ImageJ wiki (
> https://imagej.net/), and why I wrote the page https://imagej.net/
> Distribution.
>
> === ImageJ is permissively licensed ===
>
>> We want to enable tools to be - discoverable, re-useable and supported
>> by the author, for a price. Existing media (methods section of a
>> paper, supplementary pages, and methods journals) are unsuitable for
>> this purpose.
>
> ImageJ is funded by taxpayer money, and permissively licensed (
> https://imagej.net/Licensing). It is available to the community for any and
> all purposes, including commercial ones. From a general,
> non-science-specific perspective, an "app store" for ImageJ extensions
> could be extremely convenient, and could expand the ImageJ community.
>
> === The problem with non-free extensions ===
>
> That said, ImageJ's primary use case is scientific image analysis, and it
> is vital that such analyses be 100% reproducible. Non-free extensions are a
> barrier to that reproducibility. For a detailed rationale, see
> http://imagej.net/Open_Source and http://imagej.net/Reproducibility.
>
> === Objections ===
>
> I have two primary objections to imagejplugins.com as presented:
>
> 1) In practice, it would encourage non-free plugins intended for scientific
> analysis, resulting in less reproducible science in our community. Even
> with fully reproducible FOSS, science is still difficult to do well (
> http://imagej.github.io/presentations/2017-02-16-imagej2-neubias/#/18/2).
>
> 2) One of the primary goals of ImageJ2 is to unify online resources. We
> still need to integrate several major resources onto the primary ImageJ
> site (https://imagej.net/), including the ImageJ user guide (
> https://imagej.net/docs/guide/), ImageJ 1.x plugin documentation (
> https://imagej.net/index.html), and ImageJDocu Wiki (
> http://imagejdocu.tudor.lu/). A new site imagejplugins.com would be a step
> backward from that. If you want to move forward with an "app store" for
> ImageJ extensions in this vein, I strongly encourage you to gather
> requirements publicly from the community, and work toward some kind of
> central community standard—i.e., something official, supported by the core
> tooling of ImageJ. Yes, it is more work, but it is better for the same
> reasons developing reusable plugins is better.
>
> I also have a third pragmatic objection: implementing the security elements
> necessary to support a payment infrastructure is a lot of effort. The core
> ImageJ or Fiji development teams have neither time nor energy to facilitate
> making it possible, for reasons stated above.
>
> === Ways to fund development of ImageJ extensions ===
>
> Circling back to the broader question: how do we fund development and
> maintenance of reusable ImageJ extensions? There are many possibilities,
> such as:
>
> 1) Consulting—pay for the development, not the code. Several commercial
> entities (companies, consultants, freelancers, etc.) make a living coding
> solutions for clients, including ImageJ extensions [1]. In the typical
> case, the client pays for consulting and/or code development services, and
> the results are then released as open source whenever possible. In my view,
> this is a nice crossroads of commercial and OSS development.
>
> 2) Public funds, such as scientific grants. This is how much of core ImageJ
> and many Fiji plugins are funded. See http://imagej.net/Funding. I think
> public agencies are (in general) becoming more aware that reusability,
> including continued maintenance, is a necessary piece of the puzzle.
>
> 3) Training courses with registration fees.
>
> 4) Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/) and similar donation mechanisms.
>
> The main thing to keep in mind is: how to fund the effort, while keeping
> the science reproducible?
>
> In the vein of "pay for the development, not the code," one idea I have
> discussed with other developers is a web-based bounty system for issues.
> Users may pledge money towards issues (i.e. bugs and feature requests) they
> want to see solved. Developers may work on these issues. When work is
> complete, the users confirm that their requirements are met, and the
> payment happens. Of course, there are many nuances, edge cases and pitfalls
> which must be carefully considered for such a scheme to work in practice.
> But these are the sorts of places where there is room for ethical
> innovation that keeps the science open while creating new revenue streams.
>
> Regards,
> Curtis
>
> [1] E.g.: True North Intelligent Algorithms (http://truenorth-ia.com/) and
> OptiNav (https://www.optinav.com/imagej-plugins).
>
> --
> Curtis Rueden
> LOCI software architect - https://loci.wisc.edu/software
> ImageJ2 lead, Fiji maintainer - https://imagej.net/User:Rueden
> Did you know ImageJ has a forum? http://forum.imagej.net/
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Thomas Boudier <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Pushkar,
>>
>> I think there is a big misunderstanding on what you want to do. I f you
>> want to set up a repository of existing plugins, ok, why not, but what for
>> ?.  There are aleady many official repositories for plugins, I do not think
>> we need one more. And if you want to create a repository, please ask the
>> plugins developers if they want their plugins to be hosted on your
>> repository.
>>
>> If you want to have commercial activity with ImageJ/Fiji, there is space
>> for this, and the best (and only ?) way to do is to set-up a company and
>> provide programming service  to develop custom-made plugins to
>> third-parties.
>>
>> I think the idea of a shop mixing free (and open-source) plugins with paid
>> ones is not a good idea as it is not the ImageJ/Fiji philosophy, so please
>> clarify your intentions.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/04/2017 15:33, pushkarparanjpe wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you for pointing this out.
>>>
>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>
>>>> First, I am a bit confused about who "we" is in Pushkar's emails.
>>>> On Pushkar's web site the google maps location of the "business" is
>>>> located close to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, in a
>>>> residential
>>>> area.
>>>>
>>> Currently, I am operating out of Liverpool, UK. I have updated the default
>>> map location of the website template just now.
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>
>>>> Pushkar, even though your emails seem very well phrased (business
>>>> language)
>>>> in terms of your intentions with this ImageJ plugin "shop", personally I
>>>> am
>>>> not convinced that you shared the true story behind your intentions.
>>>>
>>> I would love to get on a call with you and talk about the motivations for
>>> starting this website. I am writing to you separately to share my mobile
>>> phone number.
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>> Pushkar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.c
>>> om/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018485.html
>>> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>>  /***************************************************************/
>>       Thomas Boudier, Associate Professor, UPMC,
>>       Université Pierre et Marie Curie, Paris, France.
>>       BioInformatics Institute (BII)/IPAL, Singapore.
>> /**************************************************************/
>>
>>
>> --
>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>
>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>

--
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

bnorthan
Hi Curtis

Thanks for the mention.  For those who don't know me, I do freelance work,
programming image processing plugins.  ImageJ is by far my preferred tool,
though I still end up doing a lot of matlab.  A lot of the work I've been
paid for has ended up being proprietary.  However I've taken several steps
to try and contribute to the opensource community, like contributing to the
imagej-ops and imagej-scripting projects, and answering listserv questions.

In terms of building a business around ImageJ/Fiji, I would advise making
connections with the community.  If you enjoy small projects and like
coding yourself, you can find opportunities on the message group(s) and
through word of mouth.

If you want to start a larger multi-person company I think you could target
people/institutions/companies who are currently paying large sums of money
for commercial image processing software, and figure out if there is a way
to get them to switch to open source, while earning money off of
support/improvements/customization/etc.

Herbie -  My understanding is that one should only use "licensed" software
for business.   If the Author has not licensed it, then it is uncertain
what their wishes are.

Most open source software has a license, most licenses allow
re-distribution of source, some licenses allow redistribution of compiled
code without source.

FIJI itself, and many of the FIJI plugins are GPL.  One can use them for
business purposes, one can post FIJI and plugins on their own website (I
believe), but they have to redistribute the source code, and also
distribute the source code of any derivative work.

Much of the ImageJ core frame work is BSD, which means one can use it in
proprietary projects, without distributing the source.

Brian

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Herbie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear list,
>
> I very much should like to revive the discussion concerning the topic,
> especially after Curtis' extensive comments that are as lucid as the
> arguments of the initial poster.
>
> My impression is that many of the remaining contributions are more to the
> point and I don't see any reason to urge for a "respectful tone" and if so,
> in a more specific way.
>
> My opinion is that everybody should be free to pursue a fair and legal
> business model.
>
> A problem occurs however, if existing work of others, even if it is
> freeware, is presented on a _commercial_ site without explicit permission
> of the authors:
> Authors must be free to decide on which sites their work is presented.
>
> I very much should like to see further comments.
>
> Regards
>
> Herbie
>
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> Am 10.04.17 um 19:30 schrieb Curtis Rueden:
>
> Hi everyone,
>>
>> There are many different schools of thought on software development and
>> deployment, even within open-source software. It is important to keep an
>> open mind to other perspectives, and assume best intentions. So first and
>> foremost, I implore everyone to maintain a respectful tone in ImageJ
>> community discussions.
>>
>> === Reusable tools are something to strive for ===
>>
>> When we develop software tools for ourselves - these tools start out
>>> in a form that is useable mostly by yourself. It is usually when we
>>> are developing it for our friend/colleague that we care for
>>> re-useability. But once we do develop for someone else -  the tool
>>> quality improves, documentation gets added, the tool gets feature
>>> updates and bug-fixes, etc.
>>>
>>
>> This narrative certainly rings true in my experience. The fact of the
>> matter is that developing a reusable tool of broad scope is substantially
>> (sometimes vastly) more work than developing a one-off tool of limited
>> scope. How to fund/accomplish that extra work is often a thorny problem. I
>> applaud efforts to do so, because the alternative—a lack of reusable
>> tools—is not a good situation.
>>
>> We want to build a web-based community of developers and users that
>>> benefits from such exchanges.
>>>
>>
>> 100% agreed. That is why we have ImageJ update sites. It is a big reason
>> for the existence of ImageJ2. It is why we have the ImageJ wiki (
>> https://imagej.net/), and why I wrote the page https://imagej.net/
>> Distribution.
>>
>> === ImageJ is permissively licensed ===
>>
>> We want to enable tools to be - discoverable, re-useable and supported
>>> by the author, for a price. Existing media (methods section of a
>>> paper, supplementary pages, and methods journals) are unsuitable for
>>> this purpose.
>>>
>>
>> ImageJ is funded by taxpayer money, and permissively licensed (
>> https://imagej.net/Licensing). It is available to the community for any
>> and
>> all purposes, including commercial ones. From a general,
>> non-science-specific perspective, an "app store" for ImageJ extensions
>> could be extremely convenient, and could expand the ImageJ community.
>>
>> === The problem with non-free extensions ===
>>
>> That said, ImageJ's primary use case is scientific image analysis, and it
>> is vital that such analyses be 100% reproducible. Non-free extensions are
>> a
>> barrier to that reproducibility. For a detailed rationale, see
>> http://imagej.net/Open_Source and http://imagej.net/Reproducibility.
>>
>> === Objections ===
>>
>> I have two primary objections to imagejplugins.com as presented:
>>
>> 1) In practice, it would encourage non-free plugins intended for
>> scientific
>> analysis, resulting in less reproducible science in our community. Even
>> with fully reproducible FOSS, science is still difficult to do well (
>> http://imagej.github.io/presentations/2017-02-16-imagej2-neubias/#/18/2).
>>
>> 2) One of the primary goals of ImageJ2 is to unify online resources. We
>> still need to integrate several major resources onto the primary ImageJ
>> site (https://imagej.net/), including the ImageJ user guide (
>> https://imagej.net/docs/guide/), ImageJ 1.x plugin documentation (
>> https://imagej.net/index.html), and ImageJDocu Wiki (
>> http://imagejdocu.tudor.lu/). A new site imagejplugins.com would be a
>> step
>> backward from that. If you want to move forward with an "app store" for
>> ImageJ extensions in this vein, I strongly encourage you to gather
>> requirements publicly from the community, and work toward some kind of
>> central community standard—i.e., something official, supported by the core
>> tooling of ImageJ. Yes, it is more work, but it is better for the same
>> reasons developing reusable plugins is better.
>>
>> I also have a third pragmatic objection: implementing the security
>> elements
>> necessary to support a payment infrastructure is a lot of effort. The core
>> ImageJ or Fiji development teams have neither time nor energy to
>> facilitate
>> making it possible, for reasons stated above.
>>
>> === Ways to fund development of ImageJ extensions ===
>>
>> Circling back to the broader question: how do we fund development and
>> maintenance of reusable ImageJ extensions? There are many possibilities,
>> such as:
>>
>> 1) Consulting—pay for the development, not the code. Several commercial
>> entities (companies, consultants, freelancers, etc.) make a living coding
>> solutions for clients, including ImageJ extensions [1]. In the typical
>> case, the client pays for consulting and/or code development services, and
>> the results are then released as open source whenever possible. In my
>> view,
>> this is a nice crossroads of commercial and OSS development.
>>
>> 2) Public funds, such as scientific grants. This is how much of core
>> ImageJ
>> and many Fiji plugins are funded. See http://imagej.net/Funding. I think
>> public agencies are (in general) becoming more aware that reusability,
>> including continued maintenance, is a necessary piece of the puzzle.
>>
>> 3) Training courses with registration fees.
>>
>> 4) Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/) and similar donation mechanisms.
>>
>> The main thing to keep in mind is: how to fund the effort, while keeping
>> the science reproducible?
>>
>> In the vein of "pay for the development, not the code," one idea I have
>> discussed with other developers is a web-based bounty system for issues.
>> Users may pledge money towards issues (i.e. bugs and feature requests)
>> they
>> want to see solved. Developers may work on these issues. When work is
>> complete, the users confirm that their requirements are met, and the
>> payment happens. Of course, there are many nuances, edge cases and
>> pitfalls
>> which must be carefully considered for such a scheme to work in practice.
>> But these are the sorts of places where there is room for ethical
>> innovation that keeps the science open while creating new revenue streams.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Curtis
>>
>> [1] E.g.: True North Intelligent Algorithms (http://truenorth-ia.com/)
>> and
>> OptiNav (https://www.optinav.com/imagej-plugins).
>>
>> --
>> Curtis Rueden
>> LOCI software architect - https://loci.wisc.edu/software
>> ImageJ2 lead, Fiji maintainer - https://imagej.net/User:Rueden
>> Did you know ImageJ has a forum? http://forum.imagej.net/
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Thomas Boudier <
>> [hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Pushkar,
>>>
>>> I think there is a big misunderstanding on what you want to do. I f you
>>> want to set up a repository of existing plugins, ok, why not, but what
>>> for
>>> ?.  There are aleady many official repositories for plugins, I do not
>>> think
>>> we need one more. And if you want to create a repository, please ask the
>>> plugins developers if they want their plugins to be hosted on your
>>> repository.
>>>
>>> If you want to have commercial activity with ImageJ/Fiji, there is space
>>> for this, and the best (and only ?) way to do is to set-up a company and
>>> provide programming service  to develop custom-made plugins to
>>> third-parties.
>>>
>>> I think the idea of a shop mixing free (and open-source) plugins with
>>> paid
>>> ones is not a good idea as it is not the ImageJ/Fiji philosophy, so
>>> please
>>> clarify your intentions.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/04/2017 15:33, pushkarparanjpe wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you for pointing this out.
>>>>
>>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>>
>>>> First, I am a bit confused about who "we" is in Pushkar's emails.
>>>>> On Pushkar's web site the google maps location of the "business" is
>>>>> located close to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, in a
>>>>> residential
>>>>> area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, I am operating out of Liverpool, UK. I have updated the
>>>> default
>>>> map location of the website template just now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>>
>>>> Pushkar, even though your emails seem very well phrased (business
>>>>> language)
>>>>> in terms of your intentions with this ImageJ plugin "shop", personally
>>>>> I
>>>>> am
>>>>> not convinced that you shared the true story behind your intentions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would love to get on a call with you and talk about the motivations
>>>> for
>>>> starting this website. I am writing to you separately to share my mobile
>>>> phone number.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>> Pushkar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.c
>>>> om/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018485.html
>>>> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>  /***************************************************************/
>>>       Thomas Boudier, Associate Professor, UPMC,
>>>       Université Pierre et Marie Curie, Paris, France.
>>>       BioInformatics Institute (BII)/IPAL, Singapore.
>>> /**************************************************************/
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>
>>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>

--
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

Herbie
Good day Brian,

and thanks for contributing.

"Herbie -  My understanding is that one should only use "licensed"
software for business.   If the Author has not licensed it, then it is
uncertain what their wishes are."

Sorry but I can't make any connection to what I've written.

"Much of the ImageJ core frame work is BSD, which means one can use it
in proprietary projects, without distributing the source."

Just for the record, it should read ImageJ-2 core (BSD-2).
The ImageJ-1 core is in the public domain, i.e. without license, except
at least the FFT section (details: <http://imagej.net/Licensing>).

Best

Herbie

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Am 11.04.17 um 11:45 schrieb Brian Northan:

> Hi Curtis
>
> Thanks for the mention.  For those who don't know me, I do freelance work,
> programming image processing plugins.  ImageJ is by far my preferred tool,
> though I still end up doing a lot of matlab.  A lot of the work I've been
> paid for has ended up being proprietary.  However I've taken several steps
> to try and contribute to the opensource community, like contributing to the
> imagej-ops and imagej-scripting projects, and answering listserv questions.
>
> In terms of building a business around ImageJ/Fiji, I would advise making
> connections with the community.  If you enjoy small projects and like
> coding yourself, you can find opportunities on the message group(s) and
> through word of mouth.
>
> If you want to start a larger multi-person company I think you could target
> people/institutions/companies who are currently paying large sums of money
> for commercial image processing software, and figure out if there is a way
> to get them to switch to open source, while earning money off of
> support/improvements/customization/etc.
>
> Herbie -  My understanding is that one should only use "licensed" software
> for business.   If the Author has not licensed it, then it is uncertain
> what their wishes are.
>
> Most open source software has a license, most licenses allow
> re-distribution of source, some licenses allow redistribution of compiled
> code without source.
>
> FIJI itself, and many of the FIJI plugins are GPL.  One can use them for
> business purposes, one can post FIJI and plugins on their own website (I
> believe), but they have to redistribute the source code, and also
> distribute the source code of any derivative work.
>
> Much of the ImageJ core frame work is BSD, which means one can use it in
> proprietary projects, without distributing the source.
>
> Brian
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Herbie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> I very much should like to revive the discussion concerning the topic,
>> especially after Curtis' extensive comments that are as lucid as the
>> arguments of the initial poster.
>>
>> My impression is that many of the remaining contributions are more to the
>> point and I don't see any reason to urge for a "respectful tone" and if so,
>> in a more specific way.
>>
>> My opinion is that everybody should be free to pursue a fair and legal
>> business model.
>>
>> A problem occurs however, if existing work of others, even if it is
>> freeware, is presented on a _commercial_ site without explicit permission
>> of the authors:
>> Authors must be free to decide on which sites their work is presented.
>>
>> I very much should like to see further comments.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Herbie
>>
>> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Am 10.04.17 um 19:30 schrieb Curtis Rueden:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> There are many different schools of thought on software development and
>>> deployment, even within open-source software. It is important to keep an
>>> open mind to other perspectives, and assume best intentions. So first and
>>> foremost, I implore everyone to maintain a respectful tone in ImageJ
>>> community discussions.
>>>
>>> === Reusable tools are something to strive for ===
>>>
>>> When we develop software tools for ourselves - these tools start out
>>>> in a form that is useable mostly by yourself. It is usually when we
>>>> are developing it for our friend/colleague that we care for
>>>> re-useability. But once we do develop for someone else -  the tool
>>>> quality improves, documentation gets added, the tool gets feature
>>>> updates and bug-fixes, etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This narrative certainly rings true in my experience. The fact of the
>>> matter is that developing a reusable tool of broad scope is substantially
>>> (sometimes vastly) more work than developing a one-off tool of limited
>>> scope. How to fund/accomplish that extra work is often a thorny problem. I
>>> applaud efforts to do so, because the alternative—a lack of reusable
>>> tools—is not a good situation.
>>>
>>> We want to build a web-based community of developers and users that
>>>> benefits from such exchanges.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 100% agreed. That is why we have ImageJ update sites. It is a big reason
>>> for the existence of ImageJ2. It is why we have the ImageJ wiki (
>>> https://imagej.net/), and why I wrote the page https://imagej.net/
>>> Distribution.
>>>
>>> === ImageJ is permissively licensed ===
>>>
>>> We want to enable tools to be - discoverable, re-useable and supported
>>>> by the author, for a price. Existing media (methods section of a
>>>> paper, supplementary pages, and methods journals) are unsuitable for
>>>> this purpose.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ImageJ is funded by taxpayer money, and permissively licensed (
>>> https://imagej.net/Licensing). It is available to the community for any
>>> and
>>> all purposes, including commercial ones. From a general,
>>> non-science-specific perspective, an "app store" for ImageJ extensions
>>> could be extremely convenient, and could expand the ImageJ community.
>>>
>>> === The problem with non-free extensions ===
>>>
>>> That said, ImageJ's primary use case is scientific image analysis, and it
>>> is vital that such analyses be 100% reproducible. Non-free extensions are
>>> a
>>> barrier to that reproducibility. For a detailed rationale, see
>>> http://imagej.net/Open_Source and http://imagej.net/Reproducibility.
>>>
>>> === Objections ===
>>>
>>> I have two primary objections to imagejplugins.com as presented:
>>>
>>> 1) In practice, it would encourage non-free plugins intended for
>>> scientific
>>> analysis, resulting in less reproducible science in our community. Even
>>> with fully reproducible FOSS, science is still difficult to do well (
>>> http://imagej.github.io/presentations/2017-02-16-imagej2-neubias/#/18/2).
>>>
>>> 2) One of the primary goals of ImageJ2 is to unify online resources. We
>>> still need to integrate several major resources onto the primary ImageJ
>>> site (https://imagej.net/), including the ImageJ user guide (
>>> https://imagej.net/docs/guide/), ImageJ 1.x plugin documentation (
>>> https://imagej.net/index.html), and ImageJDocu Wiki (
>>> http://imagejdocu.tudor.lu/). A new site imagejplugins.com would be a
>>> step
>>> backward from that. If you want to move forward with an "app store" for
>>> ImageJ extensions in this vein, I strongly encourage you to gather
>>> requirements publicly from the community, and work toward some kind of
>>> central community standard—i.e., something official, supported by the core
>>> tooling of ImageJ. Yes, it is more work, but it is better for the same
>>> reasons developing reusable plugins is better.
>>>
>>> I also have a third pragmatic objection: implementing the security
>>> elements
>>> necessary to support a payment infrastructure is a lot of effort. The core
>>> ImageJ or Fiji development teams have neither time nor energy to
>>> facilitate
>>> making it possible, for reasons stated above.
>>>
>>> === Ways to fund development of ImageJ extensions ===
>>>
>>> Circling back to the broader question: how do we fund development and
>>> maintenance of reusable ImageJ extensions? There are many possibilities,
>>> such as:
>>>
>>> 1) Consulting—pay for the development, not the code. Several commercial
>>> entities (companies, consultants, freelancers, etc.) make a living coding
>>> solutions for clients, including ImageJ extensions [1]. In the typical
>>> case, the client pays for consulting and/or code development services, and
>>> the results are then released as open source whenever possible. In my
>>> view,
>>> this is a nice crossroads of commercial and OSS development.
>>>
>>> 2) Public funds, such as scientific grants. This is how much of core
>>> ImageJ
>>> and many Fiji plugins are funded. See http://imagej.net/Funding. I think
>>> public agencies are (in general) becoming more aware that reusability,
>>> including continued maintenance, is a necessary piece of the puzzle.
>>>
>>> 3) Training courses with registration fees.
>>>
>>> 4) Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/) and similar donation mechanisms.
>>>
>>> The main thing to keep in mind is: how to fund the effort, while keeping
>>> the science reproducible?
>>>
>>> In the vein of "pay for the development, not the code," one idea I have
>>> discussed with other developers is a web-based bounty system for issues.
>>> Users may pledge money towards issues (i.e. bugs and feature requests)
>>> they
>>> want to see solved. Developers may work on these issues. When work is
>>> complete, the users confirm that their requirements are met, and the
>>> payment happens. Of course, there are many nuances, edge cases and
>>> pitfalls
>>> which must be carefully considered for such a scheme to work in practice.
>>> But these are the sorts of places where there is room for ethical
>>> innovation that keeps the science open while creating new revenue streams.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Curtis
>>>
>>> [1] E.g.: True North Intelligent Algorithms (http://truenorth-ia.com/)
>>> and
>>> OptiNav (https://www.optinav.com/imagej-plugins).
>>>
>>> --
>>> Curtis Rueden
>>> LOCI software architect - https://loci.wisc.edu/software
>>> ImageJ2 lead, Fiji maintainer - https://imagej.net/User:Rueden
>>> Did you know ImageJ has a forum? http://forum.imagej.net/
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Thomas Boudier <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Pushkar,
>>>>
>>>> I think there is a big misunderstanding on what you want to do. I f you
>>>> want to set up a repository of existing plugins, ok, why not, but what
>>>> for
>>>> ?.  There are aleady many official repositories for plugins, I do not
>>>> think
>>>> we need one more. And if you want to create a repository, please ask the
>>>> plugins developers if they want their plugins to be hosted on your
>>>> repository.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to have commercial activity with ImageJ/Fiji, there is space
>>>> for this, and the best (and only ?) way to do is to set-up a company and
>>>> provide programming service  to develop custom-made plugins to
>>>> third-parties.
>>>>
>>>> I think the idea of a shop mixing free (and open-source) plugins with
>>>> paid
>>>> ones is not a good idea as it is not the ImageJ/Fiji philosophy, so
>>>> please
>>>> clarify your intentions.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/04/2017 15:33, pushkarparanjpe wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for pointing this out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> First, I am a bit confused about who "we" is in Pushkar's emails.
>>>>>> On Pushkar's web site the google maps location of the "business" is
>>>>>> located close to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, in a
>>>>>> residential
>>>>>> area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently, I am operating out of Liverpool, UK. I have updated the
>>>>> default
>>>>> map location of the website template just now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> Pushkar, even though your emails seem very well phrased (business
>>>>>> language)
>>>>>> in terms of your intentions with this ImageJ plugin "shop", personally
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> not convinced that you shared the true story behind your intentions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would love to get on a call with you and talk about the motivations
>>>>> for
>>>>> starting this website. I am writing to you separately to share my mobile
>>>>> phone number.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>> Pushkar
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.c
>>>>> om/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018485.html
>>>>> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>  /***************************************************************/
>>>>       Thomas Boudier, Associate Professor, UPMC,
>>>>       Université Pierre et Marie Curie, Paris, France.
>>>>       BioInformatics Institute (BII)/IPAL, Singapore.
>>>> /**************************************************************/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>
>
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Re: ImageJ Plugins shop

bnorthan
Hi Herbie

A problem occurs however, if existing work of others, even if it is
> freeware, is presented on a _commercial_ site without explicit permission
> of the authors:
> Authors must be free to decide on which sites their work is presented.


I was addressing the issue of the Authors wishes.  If the Author has
licensed their work, then the license determines how it can be re-used.
Saying 'the authors must be free to decide on which sites their work is
presented' may give people the impression they have to reach out to the
author to re-use their work.  That isn't true if the work has a license.

Brian




On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 3:08 AM, Herbie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Good day Brian,
>
> and thanks for contributing.
>
> "Herbie -  My understanding is that one should only use "licensed"
> software for business.   If the Author has not licensed it, then it is
> uncertain what their wishes are."
>
> Sorry but I can't make any connection to what I've written.
>
> "Much of the ImageJ core frame work is BSD, which means one can use it in
> proprietary projects, without distributing the source."
>
> Just for the record, it should read ImageJ-2 core (BSD-2).
> The ImageJ-1 core is in the public domain, i.e. without license, except at
> least the FFT section (details: <http://imagej.net/Licensing>).
>
> Best
>
> Herbie
>
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> Am 11.04.17 um 11:45 schrieb Brian Northan:
>
> Hi Curtis
>>
>> Thanks for the mention.  For those who don't know me, I do freelance work,
>> programming image processing plugins.  ImageJ is by far my preferred tool,
>> though I still end up doing a lot of matlab.  A lot of the work I've been
>> paid for has ended up being proprietary.  However I've taken several steps
>> to try and contribute to the opensource community, like contributing to
>> the
>> imagej-ops and imagej-scripting projects, and answering listserv
>> questions.
>>
>> In terms of building a business around ImageJ/Fiji, I would advise making
>> connections with the community.  If you enjoy small projects and like
>> coding yourself, you can find opportunities on the message group(s) and
>> through word of mouth.
>>
>> If you want to start a larger multi-person company I think you could
>> target
>> people/institutions/companies who are currently paying large sums of money
>> for commercial image processing software, and figure out if there is a way
>> to get them to switch to open source, while earning money off of
>> support/improvements/customization/etc.
>>
>> Herbie -  My understanding is that one should only use "licensed" software
>> for business.   If the Author has not licensed it, then it is uncertain
>> what their wishes are.
>>
>> Most open source software has a license, most licenses allow
>> re-distribution of source, some licenses allow redistribution of compiled
>> code without source.
>>
>> FIJI itself, and many of the FIJI plugins are GPL.  One can use them for
>> business purposes, one can post FIJI and plugins on their own website (I
>> believe), but they have to redistribute the source code, and also
>> distribute the source code of any derivative work.
>>
>> Much of the ImageJ core frame work is BSD, which means one can use it in
>> proprietary projects, without distributing the source.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Herbie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear list,
>>>
>>> I very much should like to revive the discussion concerning the topic,
>>> especially after Curtis' extensive comments that are as lucid as the
>>> arguments of the initial poster.
>>>
>>> My impression is that many of the remaining contributions are more to the
>>> point and I don't see any reason to urge for a "respectful tone" and if
>>> so,
>>> in a more specific way.
>>>
>>> My opinion is that everybody should be free to pursue a fair and legal
>>> business model.
>>>
>>> A problem occurs however, if existing work of others, even if it is
>>> freeware, is presented on a _commercial_ site without explicit permission
>>> of the authors:
>>> Authors must be free to decide on which sites their work is presented.
>>>
>>> I very much should like to see further comments.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Herbie
>>>
>>> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>>> Am 10.04.17 um 19:30 schrieb Curtis Rueden:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are many different schools of thought on software development and
>>>> deployment, even within open-source software. It is important to keep an
>>>> open mind to other perspectives, and assume best intentions. So first
>>>> and
>>>> foremost, I implore everyone to maintain a respectful tone in ImageJ
>>>> community discussions.
>>>>
>>>> === Reusable tools are something to strive for ===
>>>>
>>>> When we develop software tools for ourselves - these tools start out
>>>>
>>>>> in a form that is useable mostly by yourself. It is usually when we
>>>>> are developing it for our friend/colleague that we care for
>>>>> re-useability. But once we do develop for someone else -  the tool
>>>>> quality improves, documentation gets added, the tool gets feature
>>>>> updates and bug-fixes, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> This narrative certainly rings true in my experience. The fact of the
>>>> matter is that developing a reusable tool of broad scope is
>>>> substantially
>>>> (sometimes vastly) more work than developing a one-off tool of limited
>>>> scope. How to fund/accomplish that extra work is often a thorny
>>>> problem. I
>>>> applaud efforts to do so, because the alternative—a lack of reusable
>>>> tools—is not a good situation.
>>>>
>>>> We want to build a web-based community of developers and users that
>>>>
>>>>> benefits from such exchanges.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 100% agreed. That is why we have ImageJ update sites. It is a big reason
>>>> for the existence of ImageJ2. It is why we have the ImageJ wiki (
>>>> https://imagej.net/), and why I wrote the page https://imagej.net/
>>>> Distribution.
>>>>
>>>> === ImageJ is permissively licensed ===
>>>>
>>>> We want to enable tools to be - discoverable, re-useable and supported
>>>>
>>>>> by the author, for a price. Existing media (methods section of a
>>>>> paper, supplementary pages, and methods journals) are unsuitable for
>>>>> this purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ImageJ is funded by taxpayer money, and permissively licensed (
>>>> https://imagej.net/Licensing). It is available to the community for any
>>>> and
>>>> all purposes, including commercial ones. From a general,
>>>> non-science-specific perspective, an "app store" for ImageJ extensions
>>>> could be extremely convenient, and could expand the ImageJ community.
>>>>
>>>> === The problem with non-free extensions ===
>>>>
>>>> That said, ImageJ's primary use case is scientific image analysis, and
>>>> it
>>>> is vital that such analyses be 100% reproducible. Non-free extensions
>>>> are
>>>> a
>>>> barrier to that reproducibility. For a detailed rationale, see
>>>> http://imagej.net/Open_Source and http://imagej.net/Reproducibility.
>>>>
>>>> === Objections ===
>>>>
>>>> I have two primary objections to imagejplugins.com as presented:
>>>>
>>>> 1) In practice, it would encourage non-free plugins intended for
>>>> scientific
>>>> analysis, resulting in less reproducible science in our community. Even
>>>> with fully reproducible FOSS, science is still difficult to do well (
>>>> http://imagej.github.io/presentations/2017-02-16-imagej2-neubias/#/18/2
>>>> ).
>>>>
>>>> 2) One of the primary goals of ImageJ2 is to unify online resources. We
>>>> still need to integrate several major resources onto the primary ImageJ
>>>> site (https://imagej.net/), including the ImageJ user guide (
>>>> https://imagej.net/docs/guide/), ImageJ 1.x plugin documentation (
>>>> https://imagej.net/index.html), and ImageJDocu Wiki (
>>>> http://imagejdocu.tudor.lu/). A new site imagejplugins.com would be a
>>>> step
>>>> backward from that. If you want to move forward with an "app store" for
>>>> ImageJ extensions in this vein, I strongly encourage you to gather
>>>> requirements publicly from the community, and work toward some kind of
>>>> central community standard—i.e., something official, supported by the
>>>> core
>>>> tooling of ImageJ. Yes, it is more work, but it is better for the same
>>>> reasons developing reusable plugins is better.
>>>>
>>>> I also have a third pragmatic objection: implementing the security
>>>> elements
>>>> necessary to support a payment infrastructure is a lot of effort. The
>>>> core
>>>> ImageJ or Fiji development teams have neither time nor energy to
>>>> facilitate
>>>> making it possible, for reasons stated above.
>>>>
>>>> === Ways to fund development of ImageJ extensions ===
>>>>
>>>> Circling back to the broader question: how do we fund development and
>>>> maintenance of reusable ImageJ extensions? There are many possibilities,
>>>> such as:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Consulting—pay for the development, not the code. Several commercial
>>>> entities (companies, consultants, freelancers, etc.) make a living
>>>> coding
>>>> solutions for clients, including ImageJ extensions [1]. In the typical
>>>> case, the client pays for consulting and/or code development services,
>>>> and
>>>> the results are then released as open source whenever possible. In my
>>>> view,
>>>> this is a nice crossroads of commercial and OSS development.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Public funds, such as scientific grants. This is how much of core
>>>> ImageJ
>>>> and many Fiji plugins are funded. See http://imagej.net/Funding. I
>>>> think
>>>> public agencies are (in general) becoming more aware that reusability,
>>>> including continued maintenance, is a necessary piece of the puzzle.
>>>>
>>>> 3) Training courses with registration fees.
>>>>
>>>> 4) Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/) and similar donation mechanisms.
>>>>
>>>> The main thing to keep in mind is: how to fund the effort, while keeping
>>>> the science reproducible?
>>>>
>>>> In the vein of "pay for the development, not the code," one idea I have
>>>> discussed with other developers is a web-based bounty system for issues.
>>>> Users may pledge money towards issues (i.e. bugs and feature requests)
>>>> they
>>>> want to see solved. Developers may work on these issues. When work is
>>>> complete, the users confirm that their requirements are met, and the
>>>> payment happens. Of course, there are many nuances, edge cases and
>>>> pitfalls
>>>> which must be carefully considered for such a scheme to work in
>>>> practice.
>>>> But these are the sorts of places where there is room for ethical
>>>> innovation that keeps the science open while creating new revenue
>>>> streams.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Curtis
>>>>
>>>> [1] E.g.: True North Intelligent Algorithms (http://truenorth-ia.com/)
>>>> and
>>>> OptiNav (https://www.optinav.com/imagej-plugins).
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Curtis Rueden
>>>> LOCI software architect - https://loci.wisc.edu/software
>>>> ImageJ2 lead, Fiji maintainer - https://imagej.net/User:Rueden
>>>> Did you know ImageJ has a forum? http://forum.imagej.net/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Thomas Boudier <
>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Pushkar,
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there is a big misunderstanding on what you want to do. I f you
>>>>> want to set up a repository of existing plugins, ok, why not, but what
>>>>> for
>>>>> ?.  There are aleady many official repositories for plugins, I do not
>>>>> think
>>>>> we need one more. And if you want to create a repository, please ask
>>>>> the
>>>>> plugins developers if they want their plugins to be hosted on your
>>>>> repository.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to have commercial activity with ImageJ/Fiji, there is
>>>>> space
>>>>> for this, and the best (and only ?) way to do is to set-up a company
>>>>> and
>>>>> provide programming service  to develop custom-made plugins to
>>>>> third-parties.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the idea of a shop mixing free (and open-source) plugins with
>>>>> paid
>>>>> ones is not a good idea as it is not the ImageJ/Fiji philosophy, so
>>>>> please
>>>>> clarify your intentions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/04/2017 15:33, pushkarparanjpe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for pointing this out.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, I am a bit confused about who "we" is in Pushkar's emails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Pushkar's web site the google maps location of the "business" is
>>>>>>> located close to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, in a
>>>>>>> residential
>>>>>>> area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently, I am operating out of Liverpool, UK. I have updated the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> default
>>>>>> map location of the website template just now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pushkar, even though your emails seem very well phrased (business
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> language)
>>>>>>> in terms of your intentions with this ImageJ plugin "shop",
>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> not convinced that you shared the true story behind your intentions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would love to get on a call with you and talk about the motivations
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> starting this website. I am writing to you separately to share my
>>>>>> mobile
>>>>>> phone number.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>> Pushkar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> View this message in context: http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.c
>>>>>> om/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018485.html
>>>>>> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>  /***************************************************************/
>>>>>       Thomas Boudier, Associate Professor, UPMC,
>>>>>       Université Pierre et Marie Curie, Paris, France.
>>>>>       BioInformatics Institute (BII)/IPAL, Singapore.
>>>>> /**************************************************************/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>>
>>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list: http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html
>

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